New to 3D printing

Telman 2018-05-26 02:50:27 UTC #1

Hi,
I thought I would introduce myself. My name is Terry and I'm new to 3d printing. I've been studing the subject for a while, as I was looking for a new hobby to get into, and this looks both fun and challenging. I recently ordered my FT-5 R2 and it should arrive this Monday. I feel both excited and overwhelmed at the idea of building this printer but sometimes you have to jump into the deep end, and i'm looking forward to getting to know the FT5 intimately. I've already bought a Titan extruder with a V6 (both clone unfortunlately), I'm not sure if that's going to give me better prints, but I got one anyway. In the meantime, I'll keep reading the topics on this forum.
Cheers

knabo 2018-05-26 10:50:00 UTC #2

Hi Terry,
What I can tell you about the FT-5 (or any printer actually) is take it slow. Build as precisely as you can. Make sure you get a feel for T-nuts and when they are secured properly.

As you read the forums, you will some of the issues people had. Sometimes these issues are supplier related, sometimes not. Have some patience. A 3D printer is fairly complicated.

Don't get blinded by all the pretty upgrades, build stock first and learn what the advantages or compromises an upgrade entails.

There are numerous helpful people that can help you get over any rough patches.

heartless 2018-05-26 14:22:30 UTC #3

when your kit arrives - do a complete and full inventory of parts - including all the screws, nuts, etc. Make sure you have everything you are supposed to have and it is all in good condition.
If you find something missing, or damaged, make sure you let Folgertech know right away so that issues can be corrected in a timely manner.

I also agree knabo - build it STOCK first... figure out how to use it. There is really no real reason to put in that clone hardware in the beginning. (personally, I would not be using clone anything, but that is a different subject for another day) The only reason for "upgrading" the hotend is to get higher temps than the stock unit is capable of... for a beginner, the stock unit is just fine.

Take your time with building, be as organized as you can be with the parts (a divided container for all the screws, nuts, etc is VERY helpful - even an empty egg carton works). Read the directions through completely, then read again as you are building.. read ahead a little as you go so you know what is coming up.

Things have changed a bit from when I built mine (i have a v1) parts have changed, directions have changed... several times in fact, LOL

Telman 2018-05-26 23:46:50 UTC #4

Thank you for all the tips, I will definitely use all the advice given to me.
I was going to put the new hotend on at the building stage, as I thought it would save time. But I will keep it stock until I know what I am doing. After reading the replies, I can imagine it's going to be a steep learning curve for me. So I'll take my time on the build and make sure it's made properly the first time, so not to get problems later.
I'm really hoping no parts are missing, or the very least parts I can easily replace myself. I live in Australia, and it could take up to 2 weeks or more to get here, if it's sent economy.

Ron 2018-05-27 02:22:30 UTC #5

I second the advice of @heartless and @knabo, take it slow and build it as "stock" first before diving into changes.
Make sure the framework is square and rigid before tightening things down. That is paramount.
Because you have an R2 you can build it "stock" with confidence that it will work when completed.

Like @heartless I have an R1 and so there were some essential changes I made while building it that are in effect already included your R2 kit (linked Z lead screws for example, and 24 volt PSU).

As for Titan/V6 clones, yes it would have been better to have the originals, but clones will work too.
Just be careful as to how things align, particularly in regards to the pinch lever and the drive gear.
There are some good clones and some really crappy ones, unfortunately.

Anyway, welcome to 3D printing and the FT5R2 is a great choice for a start if you want to learn the minutia of how printers work.

Telman 2018-05-27 11:39:57 UTC #6

Thanks for your advice Ron. I feel very fortunate that people like yourself have laid the groundwork to make it easier for novices like myself.

Ron 2018-05-27 15:53:09 UTC #7

Thanks but I can hardly take credit for that.
It is people that preceded me that did all the really hard work.
I tip my hat to them.
I only added a few tweaks to suit my own tastes.

heartless 2018-05-27 18:36:35 UTC #8

Completely agree with Ron - it was the people that came before us... the pioneers that made all of this possible that one should really be thanking (or cursing as the case may be, lol)

But yeah, it is definitely a learning curve getting it all figured out.
The actual build of the machine is the easy part.
Getting it all calibrated and working as it should to produce nice looking pieces is the harder part.

Telman 2018-05-27 23:07:37 UTC #9

I totally agree with you. I feel confident that I can build the printer, as long as the manual is close to accurate. I see there is a setup manual also, which should help, But calibrating is where I'm going to need the most help. I have only recently started to understand about stepper drivers and how to adjust them.
My Printer is at my local FedEx facility, finally! Might have to wait up to 6pm to get it though.

Ron 2018-05-28 00:38:29 UTC #10

Well, that has been a bit of a conundrum in the past.
The manual, as it existed when I built mine at least, was rather inaccurate and lacking in necessary information.
However, the moderator of this forum @csorrows has put loads of very fine effort into upgrading and correcting it.
So the latest version should allow you to build and basically calibrate it with relative ease.
And of course there is always this forum........

Actually, the most basic of calibrations (the motions) are pretty easy to calibrate.
A digital caliper is advised for measuring things, but you can get by with a good ruler (metric of course).
It is the fine tuning for printing that can be a bit touchy.
However, if you search the forum you will find dozens of people who have posted hints and guides.

And one other resource you will probably need will be a digital thermometer (preferably a thermocouple type, not an optical type) to verify the hot end and bed temperatures.
The hot end in particular is extremely critical to get right.

Telman 2018-05-28 13:11:22 UTC #11

Thank you for the helpful advice Ron. I’ve started building the frame. I made a mistake while putting the top together and had to redo, it’s good now. Those m5 T nuts were hard to get use to at first, as some wouldn’t rotate properly. But I found if I totally loosened the m5 while keeping enough pressure on it so the nut wouldn’t fall and then tighten quickly, the t nut would go into place every time.

heartless 2018-05-28 13:19:22 UTC #12

sorry, but I have never had need of a thermometer... it either works, or it doesn't.
some people tend to get too hung up on "details" like this that are not a necessity to run things.
things are either heating, or they are not.. don't make it more complicated than it needs to be.

the "accuracy" comes from properly defining the thermistor in the firmware - which should already be done.
If you change the thermistor to another type, then the firmware would need to be changed to reflect that.

If the hotend is properly assembled, and the thermistor is properly defined, there is really no need of a thermometer at all.

Ron 2018-05-28 16:10:11 UTC #13

I respectfully disagree.
While it is true that if everything is set up correctly the temperatures should be "in the ballpark", that assumes that everything is correct.

Because, at least on my printer, there was no firmware included, no SD card, nothing, I had to go track down the firmware on the links in the manual and elsewhere.
FT did not do me or anyone else any favors by not pre-flashing the controller with the correctly set up firmware or including the firmware on an SD card.
Both of these things were clearly stated to be so in the build manual, but simply weren't.

The firmware from the link was absolutely not set up correctly and caused me all sorts of grief (poor print quality, bad adhesion, slipping extruder gear and so forth) until I discovered that the temperatures on both the hot end and the bed were way off.
I discovered and corrected that using a (wait for it).... digital thermometer.
The bed was off by around 10C (low) and the hot end was off closer to 20C (also low) as I recall.

I measured the thermistor resistances using boiling water and experimented for quite a while with different settings in the firmware until I found temperature curves that match the actual thermistors on both items.

I wasted a lot of time and filament until that was corrected.
Especially for someone just starting out, it can be very misleading.
Up to the time it was corrected the printer was basically unusable.
The print quality was more or less horrible.
So I was hardly being "hung up" on this.

20C off on the hot end will make a whale of difference in the printing experience, particularly if lower than the expected set point.

Also, if the OP changes to another hot end, especially if it is a clone, a digital thermometer will be a nearly mandatory tool to ensure it is configured correctly.

Yes, they can be tricky at first.
But you get used to them.
The method I use, which I read somewhere on this forum actually, is to engage the screw into the T nut by only a thread or so, then pre-align the nuts with the slots, then press the panel (or piece or whatever) against the rail and tighten the screws.
It almost always self-aligns and clamps.
Not always, but close to it.

Telman 2018-05-28 22:09:17 UTC #14

I would imagine it would make a big difference in print quality for sure. Do you still use the digital thermometer on a regular basis?

Telman 2018-05-28 22:10:22 UTC #15

I will definitely try that, thanks.

Ron 2018-05-28 22:40:14 UTC #16

Oh yes. It was a night and day difference.

No. At least not in regard to the FT-5.
I already had one on hand and use it for other projects all the time.
As @heartless said, once the FT-5's thermistors are set up correctly they either work or don't.
The trick is verifying that it is indeed correct to start with and eliminating that as a root cause if you do encounter printing issues.
Sort of like using a DVM to set up the step motor drivers.
It isn't something you will be using and tweaking all the time, but you will need to do it at least once when doing the initial setup.
I did for example use the thermometer again when I changed from a DC-powered bed heater to an AC mains-powered one, and again when I changed to an E3D hot end.

heartless 2018-05-29 12:57:45 UTC #17

Oh, I completely agree that in the beginning the firmware was a hot mess and yes, I had issues with it as well..
Nobody in the beginning got an SD card with the firmware on it - we all had to go get it from the google drive, and flash it ourselves - so you are not a unique case there. Anyone that did get an SD card was the unique case.

But, let me tell you this..

My very first printer was a used Solidoodle 4. The stock hotend on that had the thermistor taped to the outside of the heatblock - that was how they were made. It was also PEEK lined, so high temps were off limits
You want to talk about temperature differences?? how about around 40-45 degrees off?
I STILL never used a thermometer to figure it out.

Knowing that "most" people were printing PLA at around 200C, and ABS around 235-240C - I thought there was something seriously wrong when I was burning PLA at 200 and could not even get it up to 235 for ABS, as it would shut down at 225 with the "thermal protection" in the firmware. I learned, however, that a lot depends on how the hotend is set up, where/how the thermistor is placed, and what type of thermistor it is - some are more accurate than others, and placement makes a HUGE difference. Also, having the correct temp table setting selected in the firmware makes a difference.

I used temp calibrations to figure out optimal printing temps for that machine... for PLA it was set to about 160-165C - for ABS it was more like 190-195C - depending on colors being used - some printed best hotter, some cooler...
When I changed out the hotend for an E3D (because I eventually wanted to try printing Nylon and other high temp filaments), I had to learn how to flash the firmware to make the necessary changes, and had to recalibrate temperatures all over again. Not once did I need a thermometer to do any of this.

Every machine will be slightly different, every hotend will be slightly different - or in some cases, drastically different - as my SD4 was.
And to top that off, every filament will be slightly different in its temp requirements. It is part of the calibration process to figure out the optimal temps for YOUR machine and your filament, specifically.
While I agree that 20 degrees off on the hotend is a bit drastic, it is not that uncommon - especially in a kit printer.

And, while a DVM makes the job of setting the stepper driver voltages a bit easier, it is also not a complete necessity. It can be done without one if one needs to do so.

Please do not take this the wrong way, I applaud your determination to figure out what was going on with your machine, and the extreme lengths you went to to do so. All I am saying is that one does not necessarily "need" to go to those lengths to make things work. A few temp calibration towers would have told you the same thing - that your temps were off by around 20 degrees. Adjust your temp settings accordingly and you can still print successfully.
I used the stock hotend on my SD4 for several months - quite successfully, btw - before I invested in the E3D. I wanted to make sure I could actually make the thing work before making that investment.

That same SD4, with the original E3D v6 hotend I bought years ago (shortly after the v6 was first introduced), is now my "workhorse" printer producing prototypes and regular parts runs for other people.

Ron 2018-05-29 14:04:40 UTC #18

I believe that this is escalating out of hand quite a bit.
So let me attempt to bring it down a notch if you don't mind.
I hear what you are saying, but we have drastically differing viewpoints.
None of this is helping the OP who is an admitted newbie.

I am an engineer by profession but a physicist by degrees.
I do things methodically with as much precision as can be applied. Always.
When the display says 200C I expect the gadget being heated to be at 200C +/-.

You could tune your step sticks by adjusting them until the motors run warm to the touch and don't skip steps, but would you do that?

Would you also argue that you can eyeball the mechanical calibrations instead of precisely measuring them?

I am so done with this conversation.

carefudundae 2018-05-29 14:11:53 UTC #19

welcome @Telman! This is a great forum that has taught me a lot, and you'll find many of the issues you may possibly encounter already discussed... but if you don't just ask before you get too frustrated. Like you, I'm a little late to the 3dprinting game, but that just makes it easier since others have already worked out many of the problems for us!

yep, completely agree here... the temperature that your printer says is a loose guide and doesn't need to be taken as gospel. it's all relative, and all that really matters is that you get good prints... just need to figure out what "temperature" works well for each printer. 2 printers of similar build may print nicely at 20-30C different hotend temps, what matters is dialing in that temp and a temp tower works really well at doing that.

there are lots out there, but I personally like this one by S3D since it has repeating bridging and retraction features built in

Telman 2018-05-30 09:23:57 UTC #20

Thanks Carefudundae. I'm really glad I found this Forum. Hopefully, I'll be able to contribute to the forum somehow in the future.